Princess and the Fr-argument (sorry...)

I was already planning on writing some sort of follow up to Princess and the Frog, since I made a short rant about its importance to animation not too long ago. But an incident happened on facebook that made me think that this would be a better idea for a post. As you may know, there have been some complaints and arguments of Disney not handling the whole race problem as "proper" as they should have. I disagree strongly with this sentiment, and it was earlier this week that on my friend Chris' comment, his sister left a rather strong statement against the film. Naturally, as an arrogant and self-justified, film-studies bastard, I commenced upon a lengthy rant/argument that turned a single facebook status update into a massive 30 comment debate.

Now, I'm not posting this to "show who won the argument," or anything like that. I'm posting it because it's two very opposing views that show very different ways at looking at the film. I'm a bit of a jerk when it comes to certain discussions, so please forgive the rashness of these comments, this is me in my purest form of pissed off/slightly educated rage. I would love to hear more comments about the movie, regarding anything really. And as a side note, the animation for it was absolutely gorgeous, but that's not the point here. If you can actually get through this whole rant, let me know.

*Probably a few minor spoilers here, so you might not want to read unless you've seen the film yourself*

Christopher
anyone want to see Princess and the Frog or Fantastic Mr. Fox?

Laura
fantastic mr fox!

*Anon*
Princess and the Frog is a little racist (and, as usual for disney, sexist). Funny how A. Disney's first african princess is a frog for the majority of the film; B. Disney's first african princess is not a princess afterall, but wears princess clothes that are meant for another character (a white character); C. all of the characters are african-american stereotypes (just look at the lightning bug)
They basically just made this character to add another face to the WIDE variety of "princess" merchandise sold to young girls (adding an african "princess" will widen the target audience.)
I won't even get into the subject of disney choosing a white european fairy tail and a setting of American deep south for their first "black" toon.

Cherie
i do i do

*Anon*
i want to see fantastic mr fox though- i love wes anderson- he's a weirdo.

Laura
Preach it Sister!

Hank
I'll see both again, they're that good

Dax
You know....I am getting really sick of people trying to act like they are "politically correct" in hating this movie (that lightning bug, for starters, was obviously meant to be more of a white hillbilly than anything else). The only way that I can interpret this as being sexist, is in how it says that Tiana needs to marry a man to be truly happy. As far as racism goes though, I'm sorry... but this movie was VERY careful in walking the fine line it was on. There were many black characters that were lovingly portrayed and carefully drawn not to seem like stereotypes. And yet everyone focuses on something like the villain being too overboard. People want to blame Disney for being racist, simply because the story involves black people and I actually find that quite sad. It even goes as far as to show that there is a class struggle going on, considering how Tiana has to work hard for everything when the few white characters in the movie seem very well off. That's not racist, it's showcasing a problem that actually exists. She turned into a frog... I really don't get why people are so upset about that. You know what other Princesses weren't Princesses for most of a Disney film? Belle, Mulan, Cinderella, Snow White...

And furthermore, loving Wes Anderson films doesn't make you an art buff. He makes quirky, off-kilter films that are pretty funny...that's it. They aren't the greatest things ever. Fantastic Mr. Fox was really good, but it wasn't amazing. I'm sorry if I'm venting at you, but this type of argument is really starting to piss me off.

Dax
And yes Chris, I would probably go see either with you again, depending on when you're going.

Erin
What?XD Princess and the Frog isn't racist.

Laura
Preach it brother!

Dax
Laura: lol
A Correction: I guess Snow White is technically still a princess because she starts out as one, but the way that she's ostracized from the castle tends to make me see her as a peasant for most of the film. Anyway, I could still supplant her with Alice (she counts....right?). Also, I will give you the sexism thing for the fact that Tiana wants to be a great cook. But it's still a dream... just a bit of a traditional one.

Erin
Dax don't forget pocahontas!

Hannah
I wanna see Fantastic Mr. Fox....

Laura
Fantastic Mr Fox it is! Chris, PR, Hannah, let's go!

*Anon*
whoa, dax- that was really meant a lot more light-hearted of a conversation than you took it, and I didn't say anything about hating the film- however, disney has a long history of creating racist/sexist cartoons (this topic I would gladly discuss with you on another forum). Yes, maybe it is redundant to point it out in every new film they produce, i was mostly making conversation.
Because this "princess" is the only african female heroin in disney's history, it seems that they could have given her more history than what can be given to africans in the deep south or through a european fairytale. (there are plenty of historical african myths/stories they could have used to honor the rich history that americans like to blot out.)

And about the frog- yes, I think it is a big deal that disney's first and only african heroin is an amphibian for the majority of the story (which is not even part of the original tale). There are NO white disney princesses who turn into animals, and much less an animal that is traditionally thought of as ugly. They are all beautiful, flawless princesses- even when they are dressed in rags.
Being a early-childhood education professional, I know how disney markets to children- especially girls. This "princess" WAS created to expand disney's market, and and messed up as it is, a large majority of young girls look to disney for their ideas about femininity from princesses. How would it be if the only one of these princesses that looked like you was more frog than princess? Sounds silly, but spend some time with 4-year-old girls, then get back to me.

I can seriously expand on the subject of disney and sexism specifically- but it's too braod a subject for a facebook post.

As far as liking wes anderson- i'm pretty sure I've never claimed to be anything, much less an "art buff". I just mentioned that I like wes anderson films (and animation), and so was looking forward to this particular film.

Dax
Sorry, I meant no textual attack aimed at you *Anon.* I just take on some comments in a very forward and overly passionate way sometimes. I suppose it seems like I'm being mean, but I just get very into discussions (/arguments) about art. And the Wes Anderson thing, that's just me being a jerk really. I've met too many people who think his work is “SO AMAZING” that it kind of is a personal vendetta of mine... (still liked that movie though, definitely go see it).

(Chris, you might not wanna read this until you see the movie *possible spoilers*)

You bring up a good point that they could have used a traditional African fairy tale, which probably would have resulted in something wonderful. Somehow though, I feel that even if Disney had done something like that, there would be a whole other faction of people that claimed Disney was being racist by associating black people with being tribal and not as advanced as modern civilization. In short, with something like this, it's very difficult to make everyone happy. They already were treading on thin ice by making a hand drawn film again when CG has become so standardized. I think they wanted to settle with a somewhat conventional story that they believed could still draw in enough of a crowd to support the film. World economy, unfortunately, does determine a lot of factors of mainstream and commercial art. Doesn't necessarily make it right, but what would you have them do instead? The alternative is making a truly great film that doesn't bring in box office numbers. This would not only deter Disney from making more hand drawn animated films, but also from making more about black characters (company executives only see the numbers).

I also am not arguing that Disney didn't create this princess to expand their market, I agree wholeheartedly. But isn't it worse for Disney to not have a black princess at all? If so many girls look to Disney the way that you describe, then I would think it even more damaging to young black girls that that particular skin tone be totally absent.

I'm well aware of Disney's track record on racism. Fantasia and Song of the South are just a few examples that come to mind and Walt was well known for supposedly being an anti-Semite. But Disney himself is dead...I like to think that those viewpoints have changed somewhat with people like John Lasseter gaining more and more control and influence over the company.

There's nothing wrong in pointing out a recurring problem like sexism. Just because it repeats itself, doesn't make it right...in fact, that's usually how those ideas are implanted and become normalized. Disney has made TONS of sexist films, you don’t need to discuss it with me. I know and I really do agree with you on those points. My concerns were more with the idea that Princess and the Frog came off as a racist film. The thing is, I've seen far worse racism in so many other forms of media nowadays. You know how often we still screw up portrayals of Asian Americans in our media? Russel from “Up” was one of the first genuine portrayals of an Asian America without any sense of stereotyping (funny…Pixar is owned by Disney). I’m sure that if you dig for it, you can find something racially uncouth about this film, but compared to everything else out there, I think it came out amazingly well.

Personally, I think frogs are cute and not at all disgusting, but again that’s probably just me. When I see Tiana’s character, I don’t see how you can even think of her as a frog considering the film’s outcome. You might notice that most marketing for merchandise based on the film shows Tiana in a fully human, well dressed state, sometimes along-side all of the other Disney princesses. I’ve even seen images where she is the center princess among them. In the movie she is drawn quite beautifully, even when she is in poor clothing and even as a frog (they never make her look ugly). “Spend time with 4 year old girls and then get back to you”? What right do you have to even be talking about black people by that token? Were you raised by a black family, have you gone through their class struggles and turmoil? I was a child, and I still remember what it was like being one. Don’t even get me started on how hard it is dealing with Aladdin being one of my favorite child hood movies, only to discover later on in life how white washed the main characters are and how it showcases our misunderstanding of the Middle East. Was there anywhere’s near as big a fuss about that back then? Yeah, some people spoke out, but for the most part no one cared. As crazy as it may seem, I genuinely don’t believe the creators of the film ever meant anything as malicious as suggesting that black people were like animals or not worthy of being drawn as beautiful characters for the entirety of a movie. In Beauty and the Beast, the prince (I know he’s not a girl, but still…) isn’t human for most of the film. Does that mean that we think French men are like disgusting beasts? Maybe a bad analogy, but the whole “transformation into animals” thing is kind of a scant subject in Disney folklore… I think that the movie’s prime concern was with issues of class (paralleled by racial status). Focusing so much on what people want to interpret as racist only distracts from the more important meanings of the story, which are finding love and working hard for what you want in life. Tiana (even if you choose to see frog in her) is a far better role-model character than princesses like Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, or Jasmine. I would much rather have a little girl aspiring to be a hard worker than just someone who’s basically a pretty trophy. Plus if you think about it, Naveen falls in love with her more for her personality than her beauty since they spend most of their time together as frogs. I don’t believe that I can fully argue away the notion that Tiana may be seen as part frog, it just doesn’t seem as damaging or prominent to me as you make it out to be, and constantly bringing it up will only make that association stronger… but of course, I could be wrong.

For the record, I hate a lot of things that Disney does, but this was still a wonderful film in so many ways beyond these issues (I wonder how it feels to have a black princess in one of the most exquisitely well animated films ever made by Disney…). Why does this product have to receive more hate than genuine crap like G-Force or the Jonas Brothers, which are permanently dumb-ing down this generation of children? Normally, I would take good or bad comments about a movie lightheartedly, but if you’re going to play the race card on something, it isn’t just “light” conversation.

On a lighter note… how are things with you?

Hanna
Holy cow, this is a massive rant! Way to go, Chris, making people all angry...
Now, I haven't seen this movie yet, I'm waiting to see it with my family, but I agree with Dax. I think the only people who see this film as racist are the people who are looking for it, and I think that reading into these things just perpetuates racism, not just draws attention to it. I think it is just creating a problem where it doesn't exist by calling this out as racist instead of just looking at it like it is supposed to be; a clever interpretation of an old story.
And Dax, Mulan was NEVER a princess. Not even a little. The best she got was she hugged royalty.
And for the record, nobody called foul with Mulan being horribly stereotypical or racist with "Oh, HONOR!!!" and all. I think it's just because, for some sick reason, people still want to treat black people as a hot, spicy topic. It's not going to end until people knock this shit off.

*Anon*
I appreciate the thoughtful response- if i had more time this morning I would go over it point by point- but I wanted to say that the problems are not with this film specifically, or even with disney-- but there is a larger problem with our society that causes things like this to be implanted without protest.

I agree that this character could be considered a better role model than the other princesses (although she still has large breast/perfect skin/feminine ideals/etc etc)- but the fact that our society allows children to find role models in such places- and furthermore, that girls are encouraged to think of femininity in this way (not just through films- though media plays a huge role) is a serious problem.

I think the film is beautiful- the environments in particular are stunning (i like going to the website just to see the bayou drawing)- but all these little things should not go by unnoticed and unmentioned- talking about it doesn't create a stronger association with racism- it allows people to see how racism is so ingrained in our society that it occurs without the creators conscious thought (i agree that the animators/creators weren't purposefully being racist).

*Anon*
and i agree- talking about racism isn't exactly light conversation- however, I was just joking around with family- and we all tend to be a little more in depth with people we are close to.

"What right do you have to even be talking about black people by that token? Were you raised by a black family, have you gone through their class struggles and turmoil? "

And yes, actually- we were raised in a lower class family- so i am quite aware of class struggle. I have worked with many black families-- not that any of this has to do with understanding class struggle. If there is one thing that I do understand in this world-- it is the problems of class.

Laura
whew! an innocent talk about movies...hehe Good banter you two!

*Anon*
and hanna- i think many people brought up issues of racism with mulan. Pretty much every disney movie has some element of prejudice- you could write pages and pages analyzing disney's reflection of our society values.

*Anon*
*societal* values
(typing too fast...)

Hannah
Alright. Me Thinks this is just a tad ridiculous. We've got two very opinionated people butting heads. I love you all. But really... =/ It's an animated movie. -cue defensive verbal assault- ;)

Dax
"And yes, actually- we were raised in a lower class family- so i am quite aware of class struggle. I have worked with many black families-- not that any of this has to do with understanding class struggle."

If it has nothing to do with understanding class struggle, what does working with 4 year old children have to do with understanding the mentalities of children? I was saying what I said to point out that your comment didn't make sense, not to say that it was necessary to go through those class struggles to understand them, so I think you missed a bit of the point of my statement (or at least reaffirmed my original point). Nevertheless, it is nice that you come from an appropriate perspective, I wasn't trying to question you're class struggles.

"I agree that this character could be considered a better role model than the other princesses (although she still has large breast/perfect skin/feminine ideals/etc etc)"

....Weren't you just talking about how it was bad that she wasn't given the same treatment of being shown as beautifully as other white princesses? If they made her not look as pretty, people would ask why Disney had made all of the white girls beautiful and the one black princess lackluster in looks. You can't win this argument no matter what you do.

I suppose it's different when, as an adult, you're more capable of realizing that media isn't necessarily real or true to life and you can pick and choose what morals to take from the art you experience. I agree that it sucks that children look to things like this for interpretations of what to be like when they grow up, but holy crap... you could say that about EVERYTHING! You've broadened your statement to a point of generality about media that it's kind of hard to tell what you're necessarily saying anymore. You're tackling a way bigger monster than just one film's worth of socially accepted or overlooked problems. You can't change all of the world in one fell swoop, and this film was trying to be a little conservative for fear of pissing off too many people or for not doing well enough in theaters. But considering the barriers it was dealing with, I think that it handled itself in a way that doesn't merit quite the amount of criticism that nearly every other piece of media merits at this moment. In the end, the only real problems with this film are that it is somewhat sexist (albeit emotionally strong and hardworking female characters) and that some people will be angry that the main black character wasn't a beautiful human being for the entirety of the movie. If that's its only racial crime, it really isn't that big of one considering everything else the movie does to break down color barriers for black people in animated films. Now that the door is open, hopefully future hand drawn films (or cartoons with black characters) will be able to evolve story wise and start to embed the proper social values that they should. Similar to how many Pixar films have come to traverse those aspects of storytelling. Even then though, it is sad how there has still yet to be a Pixar film with a main female role (not strong female characters, which they've had plenty of, just a film where one IS the main character). I am probably repeating myself on some things here, but whatever, I thought it bared repeating or at least expanding upon.

It's nice that you don't think the main problem lies with Disney or the film itself, but it honestly seems like you are backing out of several of your original arguments. And if you don't think Disney is the problem, I certainly do. That company is responsible for more mixed feelings about movies than probably every other film company out there. Given Disney's track record, all I'm saying is that Princess and the Frog stands out as exceptional when compared to the past and pretty much EVERYTHING that Disney has been doing recently (again, an exception provided for Pixar).

Oh and Hanna, Disney Princess is sort of a blanket term at this point. It just really ends up referring to the main female roles in Disney movies, or at least Disney seems to think so, seeing as how they have Mulan in their "Disney Princess" merchandising. And I still wouldn't be wrong anyway really, I said that she wasn't a princess for most of a Disney movie...and she wasn't. She just never became one either.

*Anon*, in all honestly I really enjoy discussions like these. I can't stand commenting on forums because everyone is an idiot most of the time, so it is nice to have a forceful and intelligent "opponent" to look at things from the other side. But I mean no hostility aimed at you in my points of view, just so you know. I am sorry if I brought you into a lengthy discussion that you didn't want to be a part of. Thank you for the conversation thus far.

*Anon*
"If it has nothing to do with understanding class struggle, what does working with 4 year old children have to do with understanding the mentalities of children?"

I'm not sure i understand what you're trying to say.
Working with children doesn't necessarily mean you understand the development of a child's mind- but when you study human behaviour and child development- combined with experience working with children, I'd say you would know an awful lot about the mentalities of children, and how the media affects them.
The same with understanding class struggle- there are a lot of people who are lower class that do not understand the problems of class, and certainly there are a lot of people who work with low class families and have no idea. I shouldn't have said "has nothing to do with", because I suppose that's incorrect- but studying class division is something that takes up my free time, so i believe i have a pretty decent understanding.

"Weren't you just talking about how it was bad that she wasn't given the same treatment of being shown as beautifully as other white princesses? "

Yes, i understand that this is somewhat of a contradiction- but social issues are often riddled with negative feedback cycles--like the chicken and the egg question- which came first, the inappropriate media, or the inappropriate social values. Both are caused in part by the other.

Yes- Disney is at fault because they choose not to provide a model of respect towards various cultures (or women), but they are reacting to the traditional value placed on non-whites and women in our society, so cannot be thought of as the source of the problem. However, social values are VERY MUCH influenced by popular media, and media aimed towards children are especially dangerous because of a young child's inability to separate fantasy from reality.
For this reason, I think children's programming should be held up to a higher standard- which involves OPEN criticism (from people like you and me). You're right- this is a huge topic that cannot be fully contained in an argument about a film- however, that doesn't mean that it should go by ignored. Racism and sexism aren't eradicated by ignoring the problem. We should ALWAYS be questioning our values and popular culture.

Yes, I do find a problem with treating an african princess differently from the other princesses- whether or not I agree with the feminine stereotype they produce-- Because disney places such obvious importance on traditional/stereotypical feminine beauty, it seems especially out of place to disregard that importance for their first african heroine (in the form of making her a frog). If disney had a history of creating realistic heroines with non-traditional roles to play, this wouldn't really have stood out to anyone.

Hannah- don't worry- no one is assaulting anyone- just having a conversation.

Dax
"just having a conversation." Riiiiight..... *loads shotgun *
...ah, just kidding. Ooh, this is fun.

What I meant to say with the "has nothing to do with it" thing, was that the comment seemed a bit contradictory, that's all. I just believe that if your going to back up an argument, you should do it with a logical explanation and not a statement of what experience you have. It's like saying, "I know more because I've done this, so you're just wrong." I could totally bring up being a film major, saying that I've studied how to analyze media better than you or some crap like that, but it doesn't really seem productive and doesn't really add any content or meaning to what I am trying to say. Professionals can easily be wrong about anything that they try to study. Your prowess should be apparent in the way that you convey a message, not in what you say that you have done.

Hannah, I know that you expected a verbal assault for your comment...so here it is. *Anon* is right, it is very important to pay attention to all kinds of media. Media, in large part forms the ways that people think about many things in life and children are especially impressionable, so the concern isn't without merit. Something being "just a" cartoon doesn't matter, because no piece of media is "just a" anything if it's seen by millions of people world wide. Besides, that just perpetuates ideas that animation is less of an art form or societal influence than live action film, which is a GROSS misunderstanding at this point.

(I just realized that there were two Hanna(h)s in this conversation, lol)

You're also right *Anon,* whatever problem there is that exists with this film was created by the tumultuous history that the Disney company has created for itself. I've been trying to look at the film for what it is and what it tried to be, but if we keep looking back and yelling at Disney for what it's done in the past, it seems a bit unfair really. They can't just CHANGE their history (although they have tried). A clever idea is getting mislabeled as offensive because some people can't help but bring this into comparison with every other Disney movie. As its own film however, I think that the whole "racist" thing kind of loses it's credence. It was an oversight that should be noted and brought up, but also, in my opinion, forgiven. If a significant amount of black people are offended by this film, then I really think that it's nothing more than an unfortunate misunderstanding between the audience and the film's creators.

I believe that we have come to somewhat of an equilibrium on this (albeit a few points), so I see little point in furthering the conversation really...unless of course, you still have more rebuttal :)

I actually do have a question for you though. Some friends and I have a film blog on which we write about various movies and what not. Not really huge or anything, but we do it mostly for fun. Would you mind terribly if I posted this conversation on our blog? (I promise not to edit or change anything, just so you know) I would like to hear other people's opinions on this movie and I think this was a very fun and in depth conversation on the topic.

*Anon*
i think we're veering a little off topic, but to say that experience and study do not contribute to credibility is false. Not to say you shouldn't question experts (especially self-proclaimed experts), but education and experience are ALWAYS cited in any article or essay about anything--that's how we can tell what is worth reading and what is not.

rather than taking 3 pages to explain why children are influenced by popular media (i don't think i used my professional history as an "end-argument" as you suggest), I figured you would have agreed with most of what i would say about the media's influence on children (which you seem to), and so bypassed that explanation by mentioning my understanding and experience in the matter.
I could just say: Children are influenced by the media- but that wouldn't really get my point across.
I could spend 3 pages telling you how exactly the media affects children and many specific examples, but that seems overbearing for a facebook public post, and, like I said, it was a small part of this particular argument. Instead, I mentioned how much time and energy I spend on understanding and being with children, enough to have a varied view on the influence of pop media on young children. Claiming that I have knowledge about a particular subject that I am well experienced in is what all professionals do- otherwise they wouldn't be professionals.

I think mentioning what you learned in your film major would add credibility to your argument, and i would like to hear more arguments based out of this experience.

I would like to add one last point-- just because disney, or anyone, is less racist/sexist than they were 50 years ago, doesn't mean they should be applauded or exonerated from current faults. "Song of the South" was not nearly as bad as earlier films' depiction of african americans (like "blackface" (*shudder*)- but that doesn't make S.O.T.S. an acceptable portrayal of african americans. Just because frog and the princess is not nearly as bad as S.O.T.S, or the lead character is slightly stronger willed than the traditional disney princess, doesn't mean we should pass on reasonable criticism and discussion .

Dax
Fair enough, citing one's profession does work in an essay or academic format...but in a facebook post, it really just makes you seem pompous, regardless of how justified you are. That's kind of where I was coming from on that comment.

"I was a film major"...there, all that did was let people know that I studied film. I've already expressed my point of view. I'm not sure what I would cite in particular from film studies to emphasize a personal opinion that the first black princess being turned into a frog was not that bad or harmful...

If you wanna talk Jacques Lacan's theory of the Mirror stage of childhood development or something like that, then I suppose I could go off on something. But I already agree with you on the impressionable childhood thing...I was never arguing against it in the first place. And you're right, this is off topic…

Of your original A, B, C reasons for the film's racism, only "A" still has any decent merit to it. Your argument rests almost entirely on the "only princess to be associated with an animal, therefore racist to black people" approach, and honestly that's really up to a personal opinion in regards to being offensive, so I don't see any point of debating the topic beyond this.

This isn't about comparisons to the next more racist thing. I suppose I shouldn't have even mentioned how it was a better film when not compared to older Disney movies or how it was good that the princess was a slightly better role model than past princesses, since that kind of threw the topic into the whole "sexist" direction. I never disagreed with the film being sexist and I never said that children weren't impressionable, you kind of brought those things up. I just still fail to see the film as genuinely harmful towards people's impressions of black people.

You think what you think and I think what I think. No amount of debate is going to change this (especially not after 10 lengthy back and forth comments between two very stubborn and opinionated people).

Btw, you still didn't answer my last question. :)

*Anon*
sure- post it anywhere. I doubt you'll receive much resistance to your opinion, as it seems to be the popular one.

cheers for a good debate.

x

Dax Schaffer
Just because something is popular doesn't make it correct, always fight strongly for what you believe is the truth.

cheers.

x